| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| God_Chaser |
Posted - January 18 2003 : 08:12:57 AM
I have on occassion heard alot of talk about inventory taking and weanted to see if some things could be clarified. So, as a result of another post and comments made there I thought I would start a new thread for discussion.
In my mind, one of the most beneficial tools I have had access to since being sober has been the feedback of others. When they share their perceptions, thoughts and observations about me, through knowing me and from a place of genuine love and concern they express those things to me by bringing things I might not be seeing to my attention.
Again, as long as this is done from a place of genuine concern and care there is no problem. This, to me is "NOT" taking my inventory. Taking my inventory would be sharing those thoughts, feelings and perceptions with anyone other than me.
Everyone must and should evaluate, assess and make judgements about all sorts of things in their lives.
It says in HOW It Works: "If you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it..."
How can I know what that is if I don't make some judgements or evaluate to some degree what it is I think you have.
When I was new this was a difficult task since I had limited information and the information I did have was contaminated with my own biases, preferences, prejudices and severely colored by my disease. I hadn't developed the eyes needed to see what anyone you truly had or even comprehend it if I had seen it.
But what I wanted at that point was very simple and easily found since everyone sober longer than me appeared to have it. I wanted my own place to live, a nice comfortable bed with fresh sheets, a hot shower and good food. I wanted to stay out of jail. I wanted a car and a girlfreind to love me.... I wanted to be somebody worth respecting.
At that point in time I didn't even "want" to be sober. I only knew that if I was going to have the slightest chance at having the other things I wanted I needed to be sober. So I was actually sober before I wanted to be. I only wanted to be sober after I discovered myself being sober for a while.
But after some time passed, after having experienced recovery, getting back into the mainstream of life, going back to school and meeting different people I realized my wants had changed and the selection of people who had what I wanted had narrowed significantly. There were not as many people to choose from.
I believe that whether we care to admit it or not we are always evaluating, assessing and judging the people, situations and things around us. Sometimes as a barometer or means of measurement or affirmation.
I don't see anything wrong with it. I do see the potential for a problem if we make those evaluations, assessments and judgements with extremely limited information or an impaired perspective, still severely scewed by our disease. But one of the by-products of the steps, in fact, I think the Big Book eludes to it after step 10 is the return of good judgement.
My sponsor explained it to me like this. He told me that I damn well better take peoples inventory to find out what they had and didn't have. He said that there was nothing wrong with doing that for myself.
He went onto say though, that repeating what I thought or felt about someone elses sobriety or spirtitual condition to anyone else, with less than kind motives was not acceptable at all. This was my recovery he said, my program, my life and therefore any information gained from observing others was to be strictly for my consumption alone and not to be shared.
Getting sober takes time and over time, by experiencing the program and the steps we get better mentally, spiritually and physically. That recovery doesn't take place in a vaccuum, we need others for examples of what we want and don't want. So we have to evaluate, assess and judge to make the best possible decisions about who we are to become.
People are where they are and can't be anywhere else. There is nothing wrong with being anywhere in that process.
Michael
"In hoc cognoscent omnes quia mei estis discipuli si dilectionem habueritis ad invicem."
Thomas Merton |
| 4 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| journeytoserenity |
Posted - January 30 2003 : 11:20:57 PM
I was taught by a very wise, gung ho, old time AA woman about judging others. I was more than a year sober and very distraught because I could not stop myself from being judgamental of others. She informed me that I MUST be judgamental of others! How else was I suppose to chose the people I wanted to become very close to in my life if I didn't make judgements?? She went on to tell me that what I do with the judgements I make, in my head concerning others, is what is so very important. That when I voice those mental judgements about others is where one gets into trouble.....then it becomes gossip and inventory taking.
I must, also, say that if it wasn't for the ones that told me what they saw - that I got angry with them about - was something I needed to desperately look at. Truth, and reality, is a hard thing to accept for any human being. But, without being open to the possibility that what that b***h just said to me - about me - I would NEVER continue to grow. If I stop growing, it's just a matter of time before I start slipping back to the old way of life. For me....that means to drink and die.
Great topic!!!
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http://www.journeytoserenity.cjb.net
Journey to Serenity Website
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| Tinker |
Posted - January 30 2003 : 12:23:53 PM
Interesting Questions.
Do people take other's inventories...absolutely. Does it say anywhere in the BB or 12 and 12 that we should..absolutely not. On the contrary it talks only about us when it comes to taking inventory. Is it necessary to take anyone's inventory...no. Not in the way we are taught in the program. Inventories in regards to the 12 steps pertain to each individual and is about them not anyone else. Discovering our part in relationships does include looking at what others have done or how they have acted..but to judge them has nothing to do at all with recovery.
We practice these principals in all of our affairs. Meaning even outside A.A. these principals work. This does not mean we do not evaluate situations or see when we should avoid certain people, places or things. Just as with fear there is healthy fear. We learn by common sense and watching and maybe dicussing with another things that may be unhealthy to us in our recovery and lives. But to me to go into any depths that involve inventory taking of another defeats what the program is teaching us. We need to check our motives when we have to get into depth about anothers behavior. Even close family members. Alanon teaches us that we can not change anyone. And by pointing out their character defects are we really trying to prove a point or gossiping? Trying to show others that they are wrong. I am finding that when I have to let someone live rent free in my head. Go to the lenghts of taking their inventory there is something wrong with me also.
Parts of Step Ten 12 and 12
As we work the first nine Steps, we prepare ourselves for the adventure of a new life. But when we approach Step Ten we commence to put our A.A. way of living to practical use, day by day, in fair weather or foul. Then comes the acid test: can we stay sober, keep in emotional balance, and live to good purpose under all conditions?
It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us. If somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also. But are there no exceptions to this rule? What about "justifiable" anger? If somebody cheats us, aren't we entitled to be mad? Can't we be properly angry with self-righteous folk? For us of A.A. these are dangerous exceptions. We have found that justified anger ought to be left to those better qualified to handle it.
In all these situations we need self-restraint, honest analysis of what is involved, a willingness to admit when the fault is ours, and an equal willingness to forgive when the fault is elsewhere. We need not be discouraged when we fall into the error of our old ways, for these disciplines are not easy. We shall look for progress, not for perfection.
Our first objective will be the development of self restraint. This carries a top priority rating. When we speak or act hastily or rashly, the ability to be fair-minded and tolerant evaporates on the spot. One unkind tirade or one willful snap judgment can ruin our relation with another person for a whole day, or maybe a whole year. Nothing pays off like restraint of tongue and pen. We must avoid quick-tempered criticism and furious, power-driven argument. The same goes for sulking or silent scorn. These are emotional booby traps baited with pride and vengefulness. Our first job is to sidestep the traps. When we are tempted by the bait, we should train ourselves to step back and think. For we can neither think nor act to good purpose until the habit of self-restraint has become automatic.
Now that we're in A.A. and sober, and winning back the esteem of our friends and business associates, we find that we still need to exercise special vigilance. As an insurance against "big-shot-ism" we can often check ourselves by remembering that we are today sober only by the grace of God and that any success we may be having is far more His success than ours.
Finally, we begin to see that all people, including ourselves, are to some extent emotionally ill as well as frequently wrong, and then we approach true tolerance and see what real love for our fellows actually means. It will become more and more evident as we go forward that it is pointless to become angry, or to get hurt by people who, like us, are suffering from the pains of growing up.
Such a radical change in our outlook will take time, maybe a lot of time. Not many people can truthfully assert that they love everybody. Most of us must admit that we have loved but a few; that we have been quite indifferent to the many so long as none of them gave us trouble; and as for the remainder--well, we have really disliked or hated them. Although these attitudes are common enough, we A.A.'s find we need something much better in order to keep our balance. We can't stand it if we hate deeply. The idea that we can be possessively loving of a few, can ignore the many, and can continue to fear or hate anybody, has to be abandoned, if only a little at a time.
We can try to stop making unreasonable demands upon those we love. We can show kindness where we had shown none. With those we dislike we can begin to practice justice and courtesy, perhaps going out of our way to understand and help them.
we should carefully examine our motives in each thought or act that appears to be wrong. In most cases our motives won't be hard to see and understand. When prideful, angry, jealous, anxious, or fearful, we acted accordingly, and that was that. Here we need only recognize that we did act or think badly, try to visualize how we might have done better, and resolve with God's help to carry these lessons over into tomorrow, making, of course, any amends still neglected.
There are cases where our ancient enemy, rationalization, has stepped in and has justified conduct which was really wrong. The temptation here is to imagine that we had good motives and reasons when we really didn't.
We "constructively criticized" someone who needed it, when our real motive was to win a useless argument. Or, the person concerned not being present, we thought we were helping others to understand him, when in actuality our true motive was to feel superior by pulling him down. We sometimes hurt those we love because they need to be "taught a lesson," when we really want to punish.
Judgement is something that the steps teach us...to know how to intuitevely handle situations that use to baffle us. It however does not tell us that we ever get to the point where we are right. We make mistakes. My way of thinking may just be harmful to someone else's fragile feelings. So I have found it better not to answer the questions that are not asked. And when someone is not acting the way I feel they should turn it over to God. I spent many hours of my life trying to figure out why people did the things they did. Something would happen at 7am and at 9pm I was still taking their inventory. Or talking about them to everyone.
I am not responsible for what others do. I can set boundaries in my life..or I can analize everything to death. Until someone does something to me...I look at them as I do anyone else. I defenitely do not listen to second hand gossip. I let people be who they are..if we do not mesh then I still give them the dignity of being who they are...just do not have to be in their lives other than to see them on occasion and be cordial.
I can find the differences if I want to...that is the easy part. Looking for the simalarities...and allowing people to be who they are is the hard part...without me having to know why. I use to want to know why now I want to know How...
I am the master of my own disaster's. If I do the opposite of what I really want to do it usually works out for the better. Thank someone who pissed me off when they shared...go up to that person who I know does not care for me and say hello...thanks for being here...and mean it.
I have had to learn a lot sponsoring...because I want to add my two cents in. One of my girls is Fellow Shipping, and I know about the guys she is drawn to. I have to bite my tongue not to take thier inventory...My motives are to control her not to help her. She would not listen anyway. All I can do is live and let live...very hard. And hope I never get to well and think I can figure this all out.
I learn by my mistakes...and usually they are putting my nose in where it does not belong.
Good Topic...We are all learning...we are not by any means perfect....but I love Step 10 as it talks about "ME" and believe me I have gone through the 12 and 12 with a fine tooth comb to find somewhere that is says its ok to talk about others...or feel the way I do when I judge others...but everytime I do it says HEY its about you dear...not anyone else. That if your own house is in order..what others do will no longer matter...and they have not changed but you have.
Thanks for the post...
Everyday is Pay Day in A.A. |
| notplastered |
Posted - January 22 2003 : 06:59:28 AM
I've learned to be open to others' suggestions about me in sobriety. I've learned to be open minded and not close myself off to criticism. I'v learned to be willing to take suggestions if they made sense. I've learned to be honest with myself and to listen.
Oderint dum metuant - Arteus
AA I O U |
| Samf |
Posted - January 19 2003 : 12:05:19 PM
Thanks, God_Chaser!
I do evaluate and judge.
When I consider my inventory taking of others negative is when I use it to make myself feel better about myself, at their expense (which I still end up doing sometimes), or use someone else to justify my own crud.
It was always easy for me to blame or point a finger at someone else. And if I am disturbed about something, there is usually something going on with me, so it would be better if I queited that disturbance and inventoried what was going on with me. This, too, I do imperfectly.
But I find I do evaluate what people say. I din't, so much, at first. I try to stay open minded, and realize that I don't always understand what is going on inside of another person, but I do qualify things by whether or not it resonates within me or is something I am curious about or want to investigate.
And I do judge and evaluate based on, "If you want what we have."
Some people don't appear to have anything I want.
When I was first getting sober, I found myself listening and taking direction, more. Now, in some areas, I know what helps me, although I am still try to be open minded about things I know nothing about.
And I had no clue of how to live, at first, and since my way didn't work, I would listen to anyone who seemed to be doing better than I was.
I also have been known to ask people to take my inventory, although they are usually hesitant to do so. And I always self-justified everything, so I have to shut up sometimes, and go away, and sit with whatever they shared with me. If I don't, I still have a tendency to defend myself and not listen.
I think what you said about it being a loving thing, or done with kindness...my interpretation...on either side, was also a great barometer for checking my motives.
And I agree that wherever we are is good and ok. We are all growing people.
I fall short of things, but I have a way of living that shows me how to deal with that, too, if I choose to do so.
One thing I was always so concerned about until really just recently was whether I was doing things "right" or not. If someone else's interpretation of a step varied from mine, I automatically assumed I was wrong, and actually got depressed and beat myself up. Now I just see that maybe my HP is busy growing me. I figure that even if someone has shared something I don't need, right this moment, that it may come back into my awareness at another date, when I need it. Like a lightbulb going off.
So, I see, that, after all, I am always evaluating and judging.
Maybe what I need to pay the most attention to, for me, is what my motive is.
Thank you for bringing this up!
Sammie
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