| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Samf |
Posted - February 28 2003 : 09:07:42 AM
How do you discover what God's will for you is?
Would love to hear what others have learned!
This is one area (of many) that I still have trouble with.
Thanks.
Sam
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| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Samf |
Posted - March 06 2003 : 8:23:23 PM
Hey, Harry. : )
"Like I am always second guessing what I had said or done and wondering if it would cause harm."
Me, too, Harry.
All I know to do is to let go of it, and hope it was right. If I think better, later, I guess I can amend it. Even that I end up asking God about, though...unless I'm inot my own will.
I like thinking, but maybe this is a childish fantasy? That maybe God knew, all along, what would happen, and maybe He makes things right, somehow.
I still do the best I know how, on any given day, but I absolutely end up having to trust that God is in the middle of the whole darned thing. It's the only hope I have.
If it was just up to what I do, man, I would be in SO much trouble, and other people would, too. : )
Thank God, my HP loves those other folks, too, and I pray He is busy, taking care of them.
I like this saying I read, once. Don't know if I could really explain the whys, but the saying said that we are not so much human beings, sharing our spiritual experience, as we are spiritual beings, sharing our human experience.
I guess what I'm saying is that it's my humanness and weakness that keeps on driving me into the arms of God.
Amazing I didn't cloud the other post....oh well! : )
Maybe this one!!
Me, too, Harry. I am still learning how to do things differently.
Still putting one foot in front of the other. Still growing. Still on the path.
It's an amazing adventure. I am grateful to be here.
Love ya, Harry.
Sammie
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| n/a |
Posted - March 06 2003 : 1:02:28 PM
Sammie, if you clouded things up, then I'm in the clouds with you. And what I mean by that, is, I do understand what you are saying.
For myself, there are a lot of times that I tend to think the old way. But, as you do, I look to God for guidance. And maybe because of that, instead of acting out what I was thinking I have the chance to see what harm it would cause and don't act on what I was thinking and a lot of times do it different from the thought. Which is doing what is right.
And as you, when it comes to trying to help someone, and even though I seek God's guidance, I still wonder if I am doing more harm than good. Like I am always second guessing what I had said or done and wondering if it would cause harm.
If it is when I am trying to help a newcomer, I find that for me, it is best that I just share my own experience and what I find helps me. I try to put myself in their shoes. Now if someone starts telling me that I must do this, or I should do that, like telling me what I have to do. For me, being a very defiant person, I back away and either don't do anything at all, or I do just the opposite.
for me, I don't think it is trying to find God's will. It is having some knowledge of what is good and what is bad and doing what I think is right.
Now I think I've clouded things up more.
Good topics in this subject, but hard for me to share my thoughts since I am just getting use to doing things differently.
Harry
What I am is God's gift to me.
What I make of myself, is my gift to Him.
Edited by - Harry on March 06 2003 1:03:18 PM |
| Samf |
Posted - March 05 2003 : 11:53:31 AM
Thank YOU, Harry.
What I was basically wondering/wanting was people's experience for finding God's will for them, or not being able to. What has worked for them, or whatever their experience is/was.
I find that when people honestly tell and share about their struggles and the things they find, that I learn so much. There is so much I can adopt or try or use. Sometimes, I see myself in someone else.
You know...it's like a meeting. One way I see meetings is that God is busy working through the meeting to give us what we need.
We all learn from each other.
I don't know God's will for me, perfectly. Not EVER!
I can see when I break out in a rash of self-will..usually afterwards.
I don't know anyone who does know, completely.
I could go on and on, Harry!
I just do the best I know how, like we all do.
I just see myself as a part of a human family, and with like-minded people, I wonder about things, sometimes.
Presently, we are in the middle of trying to help someone, and I find myself really praying and really asking about what the right thing to do is. What is YOUR will, God, for this person, for me, for all of us?
Am I doing more harm than good?
I don't know these answers.
And the things required, it seems, take more than I am able to do, on my own resources, unaided.
I haven't had the awareness of NEEDING God...and His direction and grace, so much, in a long time.
And I am afraid and concerned about causing more harm.
So, bascially, I have been doing what is in front of me to do, and praying that this is the right thing to do.
In smaller decisions, I keep asking for guidance and help.
Well! I did go on and on, didn't I?? : )
As usual, Harry, my friend...you know me. In attempting to clarify, I have probably clouded things up, more than usual.
Anyway, I think what is happening is also part of why I asked.
I also am famous for constanly asking God what His will is for me. Would like a clear cut plan, but that does not seem to be the way it is, for me. (Rats!!) : )
Love you, Harry.
Sammie
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| n/a |
Posted - March 04 2003 : 11:59:40 AM
Speaking only for myself and my feelings on this subject. I don't have a clue just what God's will for me is. And I don't have any clue to what God's will is. What I do have, is a bit of an understanding of the guidelines of spiritual principles. I do have an understanding of what is right and what is wrong. I am a human being, I have my own will. I feel God would like to see me take action on what is right, do the right thing. I can ask God for giudance, and I can even ask my sponsor for help. But the end result is, the decision is still mine to make. If I do what I know is right, and I can know it is right, and feel it is right, before I take action. But taking the action, and knowing it is the right action. The end results are the feelings I get after, knowing I had done the right thing. And all I know about that, is that it is doing what is morally right. I can know it is wrong, and feel that it is wrong. But until I take the action, it is the way I feel after I have done what is wrong. Doing it my way. And what I feel after is bad.
Do I know what God's will for me is? That is a real good question. I do know the difference between right and wrong. I do know what is good for me and what is bad for me. I do know I am only a human being. I do know that I will still make errors and mistakes. I hope and pray that I will learn from them.
Sammie, I have no way to answer this question with a solid answer of, yes I do know. Do I wish I absolutely knew? yes. Boy wouldn't that make it easier.
I cannot truthfully and honestly say, Yes I know what God's will for me is. And I will leave it at that.
But thanks for a real good post. A lot of real good replies.
Harry
What I am is God's gift to me.
What I make of myself, is my gift to Him. |
| God_Chaser |
Posted - March 04 2003 : 11:47:55 AM
Sammie
I am at least glad you get it! If no one else does than apprarently I was here for you. Let everyone else continue pretending! You stand out..."Come Out And Be Ye Therefore Seperate".
Best Wishes, you'll remain in my prayers!
Michael
"In hoc cognoscent omnes quia mei estis discipuli si dilectionem habueritis ad invicem."
Thomas Merton |
| Samf |
Posted - March 04 2003 : 11:07:58 AM
Thank you guys.
Kiti. That was great. The "feel" I get is love. Maybe more sensing, somewhere inside of me, but that is a constant, with me...that "feel"...and I have to call it grace.
G_C...The Velveteen Rabbit. Being real seems real important, to me. Being real...when others are just real, it helps me, so much more than all the pretending in the world.
I have heard or read about some of the theological explanations and interpretations of scripture and Jesus' humanity, versus divinty.
I see Jesus, today, as having human limitations and being tempted, just like we are, and what I loved about him was His realness, His compassion and love. If there ever was an example to me of trusting God, it was Him.
The Gethsemane quotation. He was probably, to my mind, hurting, afraid, etc. And He asked to have the cup removed, but submitted to His Ftaher's will, regardless.
He seemed to look on the heart of people and things, not on the externals.
He personified love, to me. Love for God. Love for His neighbor.
I love what you said about needing God. I would rather keep all my weaknesses, rather than decide I didn't need God. If they are what keeps me reaching, then, so be it. And if they weren't there, I wouldn't need to rely on God for help. And I need God's help.
It is amazing to me that I can so quickly forget that I am dependent, in my way of understanding, for every breath I take, every heartbeat, on the Creator, but I can forget that...my ego is so huge, sometimes.
Always liked the Garden of Eden. Can you imagaine...all your needs provided for. Work to do. And able to walk with God, in communion with Him, every day.
I guess in reality I see where that can still be so, in this life...I love that I have that hope.
"How many people have you heard say they stop doing certain things they used to do as they started to get better?"
This I have already done, a long time ago. It had disastrous results. It scared me, to death. I pray that I never do that again. I get sidetracked, but then, so far, by grace, have been led back to what is necessary and spared any more pain...so far.
But I know it could happen. And I know that God's grace is sufficient for all things, but don't wish to be there, again, if I can keep from it. I have a healthy fear of that, today, subject to change.
And I would rather be a slowly. I gues that I am. I always have had to learn things the hard way. And it always seems to take me forever.
One of my own defects is thinking I was smart, or intelligent, but you know where my own thinking got me, huh? The place it got so many of us.
Even today, I will think, "Oh! I get it!!"...Only to find out I didn't get it...I just thought I had. My mind short-circuited my experiencing and learning.
As usual, my attempting to share is frustrating. Am sure I have done it imperfectly. But these are my thoughts, the best I can express them, this morning.
My best wishes and my heart wishes all of you a beautiful day, and peace in your hearts.
Love,
Sammie
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| God_Chaser |
Posted - March 03 2003 : 12:08:19 PM
sammie....the longer i stay sober the more I realize how true the things you stated are for me...
"In my weakness I am made strong", "I am saved not by virtue but by grace".
At his darkest hour even the most perfect of all, Jesus said "My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me", I also recall something to the effect of " If This Is Not Thy Will For Me, Let Thy Cup Pass These Lips".
I would suggest, at the risk of creating a controversy that perhaps even Jesus was not as perfect as we might like to think. And that might in fact be part of the answer, certainly he managed, with Gods help to resist the temptations of Satan in the desert, but as evolved as he was spiritually, he was still a man and subject to the things of man perhaps even more subject to them.
To me the incredible and most enviable characteristic of Christ was His humanity...he was to me, more human in his sensitivity, his appearing doubtful and pained in moments of extreme trial.
I never got the impression from anything I've read, that he was completely and totally accepting. I've sometimes wondered what it might be like to be spirit incarnated as man and to suddenly become aware of my human limitations, subject to the same things I was once so much above and beyond, how might I respond?
The unavoidable truth about me is that I am Unworthy and Undeserving, "I am willful, arrogant, full of pride, full of self-importance, vanity...you name it. I am very
imperfect".
Therein lies the biggest blessing of my life because if it were any other way for me I would have absolutely no need for God.
I also realize at times that I may be more flawed than most, or as AA's like to say I may be sicker than others. But while my pride and ego resists that admission, it occurs to me that that might not be such a bad thing afterall because it makes my need for God that much greater. It makes sense that if I were better than I am I would have less need for God and not more. How many people have you heard say they stop doing certain things they used to do as they started to get better?
It says in the promises..."Are these extravangant promises- we think not, they are being fulfilled among us, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, they will always materialize if we work for them.
Well, I am a slowly who used to envy the quicklies, until I discovered that the slowlies have a tendency to stay around AA longer, they seem to appreciate the blessings more, they seem to have a deeper gratitude and seem less likely to take those gifts and blessings for granted.
I always I dentify so much when you share about your humanity, your human-ness, how flawed and weak you are and how much you seem to want to be more than that.
You never seem to want to put the emphasis on "How Well" or "How Sober" you are. That in itself speaks volumes to this alcoholic and is more admirable than the people around who spend so much time and effort trying to project an aura of wellness and spiritual fitness as if it were something they've created through their own act-ions. They "act", how they think sober people should "act", they "act" like they think spiritual people should "act" and they expect others to "act" that way to. They have problems when they don't.
The other thing is that while I began all of this in AA, while I recognize my ongoing need for AA, for its' program and fellowship, I also recognize a need for more. I recognize a growing need in me to go deeper, explore further. Sometimes it sounds like you are becoming aware of that same need. Sometimes it sounds like being compelled from within.
For me it always sounds like "Yes this is good, these things are good, but there is more, seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given, knock and the door shall be opened.
"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you" But what did this alcoholic do? He sought first the things of the world, money, success, power, property, prestige, approval, acceptance and only after being terribly discouraged, disappointed and depressed by not finding happiness in them when I found them or disillusioned when I didn't find them, did I really start to "Chase" or pursue God...
I had a freind who often described it as a "Divine Discontent". She said that "Many are called but few are chosen". This has taken on different meanings throughout my life. I know a preist who says "That God doesn't called the equipped, He Equipts the called". There are times when I am sitting in a room and become aware of my kinship with the people there, and yet there are other times when I realize how different my own experience in AA has been.
No I do not "act" sober, I do not "act" spiritual. To me AA is not about acting, it is about "being" genuine, real and authentic. What happened in AA for me is like what happenes to the Rabbit in the book "The Velveteen Rabbit". I acted all throughout my addiction, while I was drinking and using I acted...I stopped acting after I arrived in AA. I recognize when people are acting and when they are being...
Michael
"In hoc cognoscent omnes quia mei estis discipuli si dilectionem habueritis ad invicem."
Thomas Merton
Edited by - God_Chaser on March 03 2003 12:27:30 PM |
| bluidkiti |
Posted - March 02 2003 : 2:21:02 PM
I could so relate what you said Sam.
Just thought I would share this with you:
"What do you think of God," the teacher asked.
After a pause, the young pupil replied, "He's not a think, He's a feel. :-)
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| Samf |
Posted - March 02 2003 : 09:06:58 AM
Sometimes in my life, I find myself in the middle of a thing where I wish I knew what God's will was, or was going to be. I don't always know. I try to do the best that I am able to, with God's help, for that day.
G_C, I will check out those books, too.
I have read a little about Saint Francis, Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross. They are amazing to me. In cases like that, it is totally obvious how weak I am, and, in my case, how unwilling I am, at times.
Kiti, I like the St. Francis Prayer. It helps me, at times, to refocus. It also reminds me of the part in the Bible where it says to love your neighbor as yourself. I don't know if it applies to much to loving God with all that we are, but see where it applies to my neighbor.
I know that the Big Book states that we are not saints. I am no where close to any kind of sainthood. I am willful, arrogant, full of pride, full of self-importance, vanity...you name it.
I am very imperfect. It's my belief that only God is perfect, if anyone is. And I will never get perfect, in this life, I don't think.
One thing I try to do when seeking God's will for me, in my ordinary life occurences, is to try to let go of my own desires, in a situation, and to pray for guidance. When I have no answers or idea for a direction, I wait and do nothing. If I have to make a decision, and still feel like I have no guidance, I try to pick the best and kindest thing, and pray for God to keep me from it, if it is the wrong choice.
This is in a perfect day, because I am still guilty of rushing, being impulsive, reacting, etc.
And I find that even the one example I shared, about making a decision? Well, it changes, too. For example, asking God to stop me if I am wrong? It doesn't always happen. Sometimes I just get to deal with the consquences, for example.
What I do find is that I am never alone, and that most amazing thing in my life...God's grace.
God's grace and love and whatever He planted in my heart that makes me want to chase after Him, sometimes, is what keeps me alive, inside, what keeps me wanting to know Him better. It is when my own self-will gets in the way, that I don't. Sometimes, I just want to go my own way.
The thing that keeps me from giving up completely in even striving to discover God's will for me is His grace in the face of my being imperfect and breaking out in rashes of self will. How such a being can love me, in spite of myself, is something I really still don't understand.
I feel like Garth and wayne, in a sense...I'm not worthy. But I guess maybe that's the point. Who wouldn't want to know Someone better that loves them, that much? Who wouldn't want to understand that kind of Love better?
I would LOVE to always breathe in the atmosphere of God's love, but I find myself outside of it, often, mostly because of me, and maybe because I live life on a different plane than God. I don't know.
Thank you guys, again, for making me think and reminding me.
I find that when I am feeling desperate, scared or weak, I feel so much better, inside, just talking with other people about God, and thinking on that.
Love you.
Sam
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| God_Chaser |
Posted - March 01 2003 : 06:53:59 AM
Alright I'll answer in order of appearance. First nobody said the saint francis prayer was no good read the post before you react.
Secondly I would hardly characterize the 12 and 12 or Big Book or even the Bible (sacriledge) as literary masterpieces, let alone the be all and end all in literature and frankly limiting ones information to such a narrow reference base...well is narrow!
Additionally I hate to mention it but AA, Bill Wilson or Dr. Bob Smith didn't invent the St. Francis Prayer, or the practice of meditation which only appears in the text of the step and not the 11th Step itself. The prayer is a suggested prayer "Format" and definately not the only way to accomplish the desired end.
Finally your canned response, "What works for one might not wwork for another is true enough as far as it goes but consider this.
"It says rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path."
That is the path of the first 100. Precisely as they did it. It doesn't say anything anywhere about deviating, improving or varying other than to say those that Do not thoroughly follow the path are usually unsuccessful.
Like I said, I was also once to frightened to live outside the narrow box I created. As I began to stay sober and apply the step in my life I began to realize there was a huge world outside with tons of information to offer me. The whole idea of being teachable took on a new meaning.
just my experience
michael
"In hoc cognoscent omnes quia mei estis discipuli si dilectionem habueritis ad invicem."
Thomas Merton |
| bluidkiti |
Posted - March 01 2003 : 05:02:19 AM
The books I check out that help me live my life day to day are The Big Book, 12 x 12, The Bible. Works for me keeping it simple.
What works to keep one sober might just get another drunk.
Progress not perfection.
One thing I do know is there is a God and I ain't him.
If the St. Francis prayer was no good then why is it in the 12 x 12 in Step 11?
It is a great guide for me to live my life by.
I did like what Vicki said and agree with that - "The only thing that I KNOW is God's will for me is NOT to drink and drug!" My sponsor said that also.
Thanks for letting me share.
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| journeytoserenity |
Posted - February 28 2003 : 11:57:54 PM
The only thing that I KNOW is God's will for me is NOT to drink and drug! As far as trying to follow God's will sober - I pretty much talk with Him, check out my thinking with others, and go where I am led. I know I am going in the right direction, today, by the way I feel about the direction I am taking. When I get those funny feelings inside of me, I have it pretty clear that I am going against His will. When doors just slam shut, on the path I am following, I know It's not the path He would have me go.
Through Him, I have learned to start to trust my inner instincts again. When I am around someone that is not good for me, or good for me in following God's will, the feelings of being uncomfortable become overwhelming! I believe God does talk to people......I just had to learn to listen to what He was saying!!
When I am on the right path - God's will - doors open, I have no uncomfortable feelings, and I try my best to go where I am led......Sometimes, where I end up is totally unexpected!! But, I know it's where I am suppose to be.
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http://www.journeytoserenity.cjb.net
Journey to Serenity Website
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"We see things NOT as THEY are - but as WE are."
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| God_Chaser |
Posted - February 28 2003 : 2:43:02 PM
Simple answers in pretty packages used to satisfy me as well but after a while they just started to strike me as dismissive and someone having the unwillingness to really address my questions. The rooms of AA are full of people who prefer to "Keep It Simple" I find that this is a code way of saying "Don't Think Too Much"... "Don't Push Too Much".
In our fast food, high speed digital access society we like our spirituality simple and comfortable, with as little change as possible. We want to grow in our comfort which seldom if ever takes place. We change sponsors like we change clothes, based on prejudices and preferences. Afterall it isn't a marriage right?
The truth of the matter as I understand it, is that in a program that so fervently stresses the spiritual, most people barely scratch the surface. They seem from my perspective, content with simple answer to sometimes difficult questions. They seem content to simply maintain present conditions and preserve the status quo.
I wanted to know what Gods will was until i started to find out what it would cost me, until i started to learn that it was really about self forgetting and humility in the extreme.
I am no Saint Francis and honestly the idea of becoming one scares me to death at times. I look throughout history at the examples of people who have sought Gods Will and found it. Their existences by the worlds and cultures view and standards were not easy or comfortable. Neither has mine been.
Consider being asked to take your only son to an alter where you were to plunge a sacrificial dagger into his pure heart. Consider being willing to do this. Consider raising the dagger above your head and just as you were about to plunge it being interupted by a magnificent angel of the Lord.
Be careful what you think or say about your zealous willingness to follow God's Will because he just might hold you to your words.
There've been times in my sobriety where I spoke out of passion, without tempering my words with with humility and reserve and found myself called to represent leading to humiliation and despair.
I came to understand the meaning of "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". I am inadequate, I am unworthy and undeserving and have no qualms with that. But it seems that those realizations are what have merited the unmerited Grace I've been both blessed and cursed with.
Through my weakness, my defects, flaws and shortcomings I have for some mysterious reason gained favor with a forgiving and merciful God...
Check out a book called "The Spirituality of Imperfection" by Ernest Kurtz and Katherine Ketcham who also wrote another interesting book called "Not-God".
Michael
"In hoc cognoscent omnes quia mei estis discipuli si dilectionem habueritis ad invicem."
Thomas Merton |
| bluidkiti |
Posted - February 28 2003 : 12:00:29 PM
I was in a meeting a couple years ago which just happened to be on God's will for us. Happen at the time I had been giving much thought to that. My sponsor was called on to share and what she said was that Saint Francis prayer laid out what God's will was for her and she read the prayer. That answered that question for me.
Thanks for letting me share.
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